As far as capacity goes, I live in a 10 round state. If you want to make a mess, the sig elite 230 g is a show stopper. Pulling up graph for 223 one sees energy increasing almost linearly with barrel length up 18 where the graph ends. Owning at least 1 9mm seems practical though, as availability of ammo is likely even in a SHTF situation. Another benefit is that both are bottleneck cartridges dramatically lowering the chance of a failure to feed malfunction, an issue with both the 9mm and .45. I had never thought about all this before the day that an Iraq veteran, who loves hunting, told me use a BB gun to shoot rats in your backyard and carry a large magnum as a backup against a hog charging against you. And I don't think I'd feel like any of them are particularly wimpy neither, unless it was a 22lr that went through with minimal damage. If you notice, .40 S&W and .45 ACP have the same average energy, but as I showed earlier, .45 ACP penetrates more on gel tests. In this situation, youll be glad that you have the faster follow-up speed and a larger magazine capacity of 9mm. However I don't really feel the average .45acp has that much more recoil "if any more" than a hot 9mm round. When I went to Ballistics101.com a few years ago, I got all the data from the rounds they're tracking and averaged them out per caliber in terms of energy. Even if your bullet is only traveling an inch, it will lose velocity, as air drag is steadily wearing down momentum. Ive loved the 45 since my Marine Corps days 50 years ago. hang yourself an old school iron skillet for a target. I consistently place the 45 rounds in an 8" area. lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec. At a 30% hit rate during actual combat (due to adrenaline and urgency of quickness) add in a fall rate like no other (45) and it drops to 20%. I wrap my grips with stretch adhesive tape to give me a custom grip. Then retreat after spraying. Modern 9mm hollowpoints nearly always expand, especially if you're using +p rounds at close range it's pretty much guaranteed. I have both I like the 45 but I love the 9 mm, Agreed. The 9mm was developed by Georg Luger in 1901, who based it upon his earlier 7.6521mm Parabellum. BUT, I have read that bear attacks are usually a big surprise to both the hiker and the bear, who have both been startled by each other's company. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. The average penetration is as follows: .380 ACP (14.9"), 9mm (17.1"), .40 S&W (17.9"), .357 SIG (18.0"), .45 ACP (18.1"), and 10mm (18.9"). Now I carry a 3.2 inch barreled 9mm. any bullet that passes through the body only delivers 10% to 20% of energy to the body, like the hot 9mm that are famous for over penetrating human targets, not jello it is ENERGY that is stopping power. Would it be possible to get the raw test data? Nobody is saying 45ACP cannot kill a man. Also, the barrel length and quality of the propellant significantly affects the speed of the bullet. Think of throwing a baseball: when you throw the ball with a light, slow lob, it will drop quickly and its trajectory will look more like an arch. e.g. My military friends please chime in. I have been shot, it happened in the suburbs back in '74. Even at 7-8" barrel, the additional length of a suppressor would still allow the pistol or SBR to remain more compact than a 16" barrel. If you have a budget that, hypothetically, only allows you to fire 100 rounds at the range per visit every week/month, then that same budget will only get you 60-70 rounds with a 45. This is not exactly scientific. I once read an account by someone who shot an intruder at close range with a shotgun. Regarding protection against tyranny, every empire in history has fallen (you know that as well as any). If you come into my home, they're carrying what's left out in a bag. The .45 was becoming a dinasaur. Even better if you have the means and the skills to build one yourself, get to know what you're shooting inside and out! 357 magnum: the ammunition options are superior for your particular circumstance. My primary indoor home defense weapons are only a .40 Smith & Wesson carbine and pistols chambered in .45 Auto and .40 Smith & Wesson. Today's 45s aren't that slow. been there done that.To quote a man who has shot some people"you can kill a man without stopping him and stop a man without killing him" shoot him with a hot 9 that fails to expand due to being plugged with leather jacket and rips through with only say 20% energy transfer or 70 pounds roughly and he is gonna be on you. That's a reasonable assumption, but it's not the only possibility. It effectively supplanted the 38 Special for police use thanks in large part to its superior ballistics and functionality in semi-auto firearms. IMHO (other than good social time discussions about guns and fishing tackle) forget the caliber wars. Actually, the US & the West generally helped the Russians defeat Germany. This article has a ton of ballistic coefficient details but in general, the higher the number, the more aerodynamic it is. As most modern shooting systems use a two hannd grip, the grip circumference is negligible. Somethig to the discuters, even for an author. Then again, if penetration through a bedroom door, heavy jacket, glass, etc your .45 won't make it to the target, so much to think about! This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Forced to choose I'd take 9mm all day for so many reasons.. 9mm or 45? 130 gr VS 230 gr HPs at 1000 fps. Did the "suspects" who had 9mm rounds bounce off of them happen to be wearing red underwear and a big "S" on their chest. Very informative article! The attacker broke in through that door and the lady emptied her revolver into the guy before he was stopped. I have owned both and prefer the 1911A1 style and stopping power. I prefer more shock per hit. Well cover the calibers capabilities and offer velocity, energy and bullet drop data for the most popular 919 loads at AmmoToGo.com. Partnered with Ofcr Perry Hutchison It would seem fitting to re-hash a couple of events Richard Harvey. Whilst a Glock 19 does have more capacity than a Glock 30, they are almost identical in size, with only 5 rounds difference in standard magazine capacities. :), Here's an old lady's take on it: the best gun/caliber is what YOU shoot best. The best advice when employing these rounds in a true self defense situation is a follows: "Apply judiciously and generously until the threat has stopped". 9mm: FMJTC: 124: 396: 1200.38: SJSP: 125: 261: 970: As we can see from the charts above, the 9mm at double the pressure, translates to near double the amount of muzzle energy . As one coroner I heard from said, he's never seen a .357 Magnum leave a body and he's never seen a .44 Magnum stay in one. Muzzle Energy: 369 lb/ft (230gr at 850FPS) 304 lb/ft (124gr at 1050FPS) . He was being serious. I had one patient shot 11 times with what looked like a .380 or 9mm, hard to tell on xray. I've seen A LOT of patients shot with numerous calibers. I'm sticking with ole tried and true 1911. Im a little bit late to the party, but thanks for this. As you can see from the data, the 9mm is heavily impacted by barrel length. This is criminal. About 7 inches. Thats the meat eater .lol. When you said buy both at the end I was thinking .45 for carry and 9mm for backup. For HD, I have a 12gauge but my G19 is fine. I bought it for my wife close to 40 years ago, then she decided not to shoot anymore, sad and not so safe. 45 is that it's so much easier to see the holes on a B27 target at 25 yards than 9mm holes. i have used them on Coyotes and have seen the damage they are quite impressive. Not that a low rent trash bag would be wearing a vest if he decides to break in your casa but with the cost of bullet resistant vests getting cheaper and cheaper any things possible. 9mm: having more range, muzzle velocity, more accuracy(depending on the professionalism of the shooter), less recoil, a smaller cal(meaning the gun will have more capacity) and more penetration(Depending on the grain). In my experience the 9 millimeter is effective to about 110 yards and semi effective beyond that. Outstanding. CONNECT WITH US The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. I walk, run, stand, drop, moving toward and sideways to targets which are set standing height and kneeling height. And that's a good thing!! If you, as an individual, can put in the training required to fully leverage 40S&W or 45acp then it can be a great choice for personal defense. Those are the only advantages. Left out (one) seemingly small but (very) important step when take action time arrives. However, I am getting an M&P9 2.0 for my daily carry. But the greater concern is, that Judges in my country do not like defensive shooting. In fact, unlike the other calibers in this study, over half of the 9mm rounds from the 1800 bodies involved in shootings were FMJ. With the right 357, I can achieve upwards of 1800fps in a 16 barrel. They needed a standard that could be applied to everyone - not what was best per person. I LIKE them all. Not worth a flip as a carry gun unless one is more Shaq sized than me but for home defense, it works very well. Its not the same underpowered round that the FBI abandoned in the early 1980s. Modern ammo has not only benefited the 9mm. If I want range and penetration, I'll grab one of my rifles. We hate SPAM and promise to keep your email address safe. Seriously, people think that the 9mm rounds are the only that made progress in development. Bullet drop tends to range from 10 to 12 at 100 yards. I really hope you were joking with your statement. For resources, I recommend Rory Miller as he dedicated a chapter in his book to the freeze, Marc MacYoung how to avoid violence in general, and Tim Larkin. 5 Rounds of Hell. Adam and Eve passed on the nature of sin (spiritual death) to the whole human race (see Romans 5:12-21), which is why we MUST be "born again of the spirit in order to enter the Kingdom of God" (see John 3:3). So muzzle energy is certainly real and a consideration; however, if hit in the eye with a .22LR versus hit in the arm with a 45 ACP means anything, worry about aiming over power. Basically, I believe with smaller bores you need to make use of their speeds and get a temporary wound cavity that matters (to make up for its smaller permanent wound cavity). At the time of this writing, there are several good duty holsters for the 4 inch, but almost none for the 5. I shoot 240 consistently with my 40 and would never carry a 9 unless I had to. -- Ballistics have improved for 9mm simply to make it usable again. One or two will stand out. The link is entitled to be wrong lol, the capacity of 9mm the distance and all is great . Two ProPac set-ups on the buttstock & forestock allow for two 9RD & two 20RD extra mags onboard. I had the only 45. Damn good question and I have wondered this myself. Good evening! CCW 9mm. Every time. I notice that most articles talking up the 9mm always compares the newest and best 9mm to the old slow fmj .45, not taking into account that there are now .45 with lighter projectiles and higher speeds that far and away leave the 9mm in the dust. Operational goals dictate which weapon to carry. Kind of like when they took away the man stoppin 308 cal m14 and gave them a stinking 223 varmint round to fight a war with in nam. I believe the opposite, actually: that all Americans should be required to own and be educated on guns . When discussing the FBI and their conclusion that agents shoot better with the 9 mm, all I can say is look at their shooters. It offers a larger magazine capacity given a similarly sized firearm. However the 9mm is much faster. The .45 is a good caliber, and I have one or two of them. My preference is 9mm because I know how I'll respond. However, it's very reasonable to say that without American manufacturing, production, and agriculture the United Kingdom would have either fallen directly to the Germans or more likely would have been starved into submission. Most people I know use hollow points as they tend to have less penetration through walls and the human body but leave aone nasty show stopping wound What is a "safer" 9mm ammo for home protection, one with similar (or if possible less) penetration risk vs. the average .45 ammo? This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Their testing shows seven 9mm rounds that equal or exceed 500 ft lb, with 4 hitting between 511 and 540 ft lb. I've owned & fired both repeatable over the years. Click below for a FREE LESSON! You can think of several reasons for this better than me probably. This is why armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot tank rounds fly at speeds above 5000 fps. Lets take a look at the selling points of each one to help you decide. Any weapon or round in the right hands can be lethal just find whats the most comfortable and accurate with your shots. They are equally comfortable to carry and to shoot. My highest capacity 45 is my home defense weapon. Type your new password and hit button below to confirm it. Physics got us to the moon, Im pretty sure it can calculate which bullet is more lethal. For me, it's an SR1911, an old 4x4 Toyota with a stick, and a Pedulla my choices on all 3 are exactly the same i thought that was oddly coincidental since all 3 are not the most common choices. Even the training provided is usually lacking. You are legally responsible for every round that leaves your weapon! Bull!! The pattern element in the name contains the unique identity number of the account or website it relates to. That federal gun control laws are hard to come by because of all of the above. 1 thing that cannot be argued is that the 22 cal is very effective. Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. It's much quicker to spray left to right or right to left in front of you than get a gun out. Hollowpoint should (mostly) negate over penetration. Having some experience with both calibers and owning every one you can name I would also like to mention body armor/bullet proof vest testing. STL like the conversation but on a different subject did anyone see the movie the card Counter I see one of the stars of the movie was wearing a Pew Pew tactical shirt. If I am passing through Welfareville and Methport on my way to the Promised Land, My TP 9 with 5 extra loaded 17 round magazines of 115 grain JHP will be with me. Thats why its more popular in police, military, and civilian use. Everyone has their own confidence level and may believe what people tell them or what they read. Did four years of our fighting? Let me know in the comments below! If, as this data suggests, the external ballistics are practically negligible, then I can feel confident that Id be better served by getting the model with the best retention holster optionsRead more . More penetration does not mean more deadly. If a 10 round magazine is more than you would likely ever need (a homeowner), go with the 45. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. Very accurate pistol setup. 100% agree. Plan. Yea! For me personally Edit : You can get a firearms licence in this country but you have to be a farmer or pheasant shooter with an impeccable criminal history and with verified references and personality tests. I have done a lot of chronograph work with different barrel lengths . Here is what an okd timer officer wrote about the subject. This first is 9mm Trajectory vs .40 S&W Trajectory and the second is the Muzzle Velocity differences between the different barrel lengths when shooting the same standard ammunition. He probably also thought that a .22 LR will bounce around inside the rib cage. Or pick up some Federal HST 185 grain 45 ACP, 1140 fps! It comes from the shooter. I heard the military downgraded calibers bcuz nowadays more ppl are inexperienced shooters. Same old crap different day. The .45acp makes bigger holes, all else being equal. I'm not making this up. Thats a fact. You end up with the same energy as a .223/5.56 but with less risk of over penetration , which is great for a situation like home defense when you cant always know whats on the other side of the wall. Second, our judges demand, that each shot has to be beforethought = you can shoot perp once and then you have to evaluate, if he stoped his attack. Click here to learn about more handgun calibers. Yeah, dude doesn't have a usable arm or leg anymore. They cant handle the recoil of a .45 or .308 bcuz many times the 1st time they ever fired a weapon is after joining the military. (btw; I cast, coat and load 40, 41 & 45 Colt). There has to be an overall advantage in close to medium range combat. I was in the Corps during the .45 ACP to 9mm swap. you make me laugh. I could not agree with you more on every level. Tanks, trucks, rifles, the UK's ability to actually fight a war was incredibly damaged and near unsurvivable had the Germans pressed an attack. There really isnt any hydrostatic shock to speak of at handgun cartridge velocities to begin with. I have both and like them both. It is simulated human tissue that will show hydrostatic shock, penetration, and expansion . New developments not only improved the 9mm, modern 45ACP can make a 1 hole and 50% more energy delivered on target. For pure destructive power there's no contestnone. My experience has led me to the same conclusion. Shot placement and Round choice will be the determining factors for desired outcome. I would take the 1911 but some folks freak when they open carry. And, once you get below 9 rounds in the weapon, bullet effectiveness becomes much more important. However, police officers can enhance the effectiveness of the 9mm by careful bullet selection. Really? I found this interesting as I was expecting certain loads to perform better in certain barrel lengths. The 9mm may take between 3 to 6 shots to achieve the same level of neutralization. Be familiar! An average muzzle velocity of 9mm ammunition, that being the energy the bullet leaves the barrel with, is around 1,200 feet per second (commonly abbreviated as fps or ft/s). In my opinion 185 grain .45 Auto hollow points are a better pistol round than any 9 millimeter Luger out there. I have both, I have practiced more with the 45 ACP. Google DoubleClick IDE cookies are used to store information about how the user uses the website to present them with relevant ads and according to the user profile. Totally agree the new technology of the self defense bullets puts the 9mm in the same class as the 45acp, but I still prefer the 45acp but I carry the 9. The same advancements that the 9mm has received, so did the .45. He didn't even have a BRUISE where the 45cal bullet hit him!! Doesnt get any simpler than that. Whatever works for *YOU* is the best choice. The angle was about 45 degrees because I feared complete penetration if fired 90 degrees. They're both about the same energy in most common defensive rounds between the two calibers. Muscle memory combined with good ole fashion "practice makes perfect" will allow you to drop a man in one shot and it won't matter what you grab in the night! Here we go agin, 9mm vrs 45, With modern ballistics the 9mm went from weak and unreliable to usable. some info is well hidden for obvious reasons. An extended double stack .45 mag will give you the larger magazine capacity. Not true at all. My original TL is credited with 30-40 at Son Tay. Will a 45 penetrate body armor within 10 feet. You had to buy your own oversized grips. So, I disagree with the Taylor KO index . I'm sure he had to have some counseling, but he did his job and survived. Not a Leo no need to shoot at distance or through material. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. I have to say I like them all from 22 to 500 Smith. There is absolutely nothing more effective. 1 or 2 rounds will do and move on as the 9mm is still emptying the clip on the first target. choot em. With having very minimal firearm experience, could you recommend a good choice? Even the FBI report states that 9mm makes it easier for their agents to qualify. To give you an idea of muzzle velocity statistics, here are a few listed velocities for specific products in some of the most popular cartridges: But after doing extensive research I've come to the conclusion that the ultimate home defense gun other than a 12 gauge would be a 45 pistol like the CMMG Banshee with a suppressor. Thank You! Spray and pray LOL. Modern .45 acp is overkill against most targets (which isn't a bad thing in itself, but better to have the extra capacity if you don't really have to trade a significant reduction in lethality for it). Two were head shots. As you can see with .357 SIG, which has greater velocity and mass than .45 ACP, it still penetrates less. PS. One thing I like about the. Both 9mm and .45 ACP workjust personal preference, imo. Subscribe to Pew Pew Tactical's sales and deals email. If anything, it's the opposite. His first patient was a guy shot right by the belly button. I own, shoot and train with few firearms and calibres, including the Glock's 19, 26 and 30S.